Coach Mack Brown opens up about UNC football, NIL and the constant retirement questions

As the oldest head coach in college football’s top division, UNC’s Mack Brown now anticipates the question about when he’s going to retire long before recruits or their parents pose it.

“It gets asked before they say hello now,” Brown said.

Brown will turn 73 on Aug. 27, two days before the Tar Heels’ 2024 season opener at Minnesota. Now that Alabama’s Nick Saban has retired, Brown stands alone as the only Division I head football coach in his 70s. He’s also the winningest active coach in college football with 282 victories, piled up during head-coaching stops at Texas, Tulane, Appalachian State and North Carolina (twice). Brown won a national championship at Texas in 2005 and has taken UNC to a bowl game in each of the five years since his return to Chapel Hill prior to the 2019 season.

We met Brown at the UNC football offices for his “Sports Legends of the Carolinas” interview. He pondered the retirement question and the status of this year’s UNC team. He told a story about how he was lied to when he was a college football player at Vanderbilt and answered a question about whether he thought UNC would leave the ACC. It was an enlightening interview, edited for clarity and brevity here. A fuller version is available on the free “Sports Legends of the Carolinas” podcast.

Scott Fowler: Your first head-coaching job came at Appalachian State, in 1983. So in the 40-plus years since, where has college football changed the most?

Mack Brown: I think college football has changed more in the last three years than my first 47. And when we left amateurism and went to name, image and likeness (NIL), where players can make money, there’s so many positive things with it, but it’s a huge change. Name, image and likeness and the transfer portal — at the same time.

And then you talk about realignment. In our lifetime, none of us would ever dream that UCLA and USC would be in the Big Ten, and there wouldn’t be a Pac-12. So I think NIL, the transfer portal and realignment have probably been the three biggest changes in my career, and they’re all happening over the last three years.

SF: Given all those changes, what has kept you in coaching?

MB: When I got out at Texas and went into TV, I really enjoyed TV. I had a new family. I had a new team. It was fun. But I lost my purpose.

Because for 50 years, my purpose has been to try to help young people and try to help the game of football. And when you think of 50 years of coaching out of your 72, and then you played a lot before that — faith, family and football is what I do.

It’s very, very powerful when you think you can get up every morning and you might change the direction in a positive way of some young person’s life. Or you might help a young coach. All the older coaches helped me, and now I’m that guy. I’m the older guy. Sally (Brown’s wife) and I are at a wonderful time in our life. ... It’s our time now to give back.

SF: How good are you with technology? Do you get younger staffers to help you?

MB: I do, but I’m pretty good. I’ve stayed in touch with it. There was an expectation with ESPN and ABC that I was on Twitter and I was active. And in recruiting, you have to. So I really like it. I talk about the addictions now that we all have for phones and iPads and computers, but I’m probably one of them. I don’t like to admit it. But when I (see my) screen time every Sunday? Oh my gosh.

SF: What was your childhood like?

MB: I was so blessed. I had Mom and Dad, an older brother and a younger brother, growing up in a small town in Cookeville, Tenn. My granddad was the high school football coach for years and then he became the superintendent of schools while I was in school. He was the love of my life. I learned to fish with him. I want to be the grandfather to my grandkids that he was to me.

My dad was a principal, and then he owned the local sporting goods store. I worked there every day. ... Dad was really hard on us, but I realize now that it’s because he loved us so much. And Mom? She loved her children so much, that whatever we did, it was somebody else’s fault if we messed something up.

So I do understand parents now and how much they love their kids. I was very loved.

SF: Did you know in high school you wanted to coach?

MB: I wanted to be a lawyer, and I went to Vanderbilt to be a lawyer. And then I realized that lawyers have to read a whole lot, and I didn’t like to read (laughs). ... My dad and my granddad were in the school business, so I just got so I wanted to coach.

My grandmother told me one time, “Be a doctor or a lawyer. There’s lots of those. You have opportunities. There aren’t many Mickey Mantles and Roger Marises.”

And she walked out and my granddad came in and said, “Boy, do what you like. Because if you do that, you don’t work a day in your life.” So I think granddad was right.

SF: So you did that, probably not thinking you’d make a lot of money in it, right?

MB: No, it’s one of the wonderful things about being 72 and being back in coaching. I’m not worried about anything except the kids, and that’s what I got into coaching for ... (I) never thought I’d make any money. Now I’ve got enough money. And I’ve got enough wins. But I want to help kids, and you can’t help kids without winning. You can’t keep your job without winning. So you have to win, and winning is important for them too, for their progress.

The 2024 Tar Heels’ prognosis

SF: What’s this year’s team like (UNC was picked to finish eighth in the 17-team ACC by the media)? Is this a rebuilding year for UNC?

MB: I don’t think so. I think everybody else thinks so because of Drake (Maye, who quarterbacked UNC the past two years and then went No. 3 overall to New England in the 2024 NFL Draft). Defensively, we’ve got just about everybody back. ... (New defensive coordinator) Geoff Collins has come in, and he’s blended very well with the defensive staff, and they’re going to be aggressive. ... We’ll be better on defense. ... We’ve got a really good quarterback room — a combination of guys (UNC has yet to announce its starting quarterback for the season opener Aug. 29 at Minnesota).

Offensively, you’ve got Omarion Hampton, who’s one of the best backs in the country. Arguably the best. You’ve got receivers that have played a lot. Maybe the best tight end room in the country. An offensive line that’s rebuilt but has a chance to be better than what we’ve had. ...

I really think with Drake gone, we’ll run the ball more and that’ll help our defense. ... This team has got the chip on the shoulder, because they know everybody thinks they’re not any good. So it’s kind of a fun place to be.

SF: You’ve coached almost exactly the same number of years at Texas and at North Carolina. Do you consider yourself more of a Longhorn or a Tar Heel?

MB: Yes.

Mack Brown and the retirement question

SF: I’m sure the retirement question is now asked all the time by recruits and their parents?

MB: It gets asked before they say hello now.

SF: What do you say?

MB: Well, Roy (Williams, UNC’s former basketball coach) retired (at age 70). Coach Saban retired at 72. Villanova’s (basketball) coach, Jay Wright, retired (at age 60). So a lot of people are saying, “I’m not going to put up with this. I’m just not going to do it anymore.” And to me, it’s been more of I’m needed more right now than ever before. The game needs older people with experience that can help make some sense out of this stuff.

The kids need a balance. They need a soothing, confident influence. And I’m a better coach now than I’ve ever been, because I’ve still got my energy, but I’ve got more experience and more confidence than I’ve ever had.

At Texas, I got tired. ... I started talking about retirement. ... When you do that, you’re getting ready to be through. ... So when Sally and I got back in, we said, “We’re not going to think about it (retirement). We’re not going to talk about it. We’re just going to work our tail off, and then one day, when it’s best for the university and best for the kids, we’ll know it, and we’ll just stop.” But we’re not going to prepare to stop.

We’re offering (scholarships to) 27 quarterbacks and running backs from the class of ‘27. Why would I be doing that if I’m thinking about quitting?

So when people come in, I tell the families, “I know you’re going to ask me if I’m going to quit, because every coach has told you I’m going to quit.” And I said, “What a great compliment to me, that they want me to quit ...” So that’s a good thing.

SF: So when you do retire, it will be all of a sudden, at the end of a season, somewhat like Coach Williams did?

MB: Since I’m not going to think about it at all, there will be a day that I’ll get up and just say, “I think it’s best right now for North Carolina to transition to this.” And then I’ll do it. I’ll be in the mountains of North Carolina playing golf. Or fishing for trout. Or on the beach. I’ll be out of the way.

When a coach lied to Brown

SF: In college, when you were a player, you transferred from Vanderbilt to Florida State. Why?

MB: They actually lied to me, which is another thing that’s really helped me in coaching. My brother Watson (also a future college football coach) had hurt his knee. He was in the hospital. They (members of the coaching staff) told me to go tell him they were gonna move him from quarterback to receiver. And he was a very highly recruited quarterback.

So I did that, and he got really mad at me. And then I went back and told the coaches. They went over and told him, “No he got it wrong. That’s not what we said.” So I said, “That is what they said.” So I walked in that day and quit. And that’s one thing that I have assured coaches and parents, I will never lie to you, because it was so hurtful.

And then I went to Florida State. I got hurt in a pickup football game for a fraternity and then kept playing, and probably shouldn’t have at that time. I’ve had eight knee operations, and two of them knee replacements. So I can tell players, “If you’re struggling with injuries, don’t play. Because at 50 you’re not gonna be able to walk.”

SF: What sort of effect has NIL and the transfer portal had on UNC?

MB: We started so well (in Brown’s second stint as UNC’s head coach), and then NIL set us back. And the transfer portal. Transfer portals are hard on the academic schools, because it’s hard to get somebody in. And when you’ve got so many sports (at a college) and they’re all wanting money, and you’ve got donor fatigue.

‘Football’s the money’

SF: You’re saying you don’t have as much money to spend on players as some schools?

MB: We don’t. We’re doing better, making progress. But we’ve told our alums for years you can’t have agents. Now, every player’s got an agent. In fact, we got in trouble for having agents at one point.

And then we told (the school’s supporters): “Don’t ever pay a recruit. Don’t ever pay a player. You can’t do it.” Now we’re saying, “We’re kidding, you’ve gotta pay players.” So our group has been a little bit slower to embrace it. I think we’re seeing now that it’s here. It’s the new world. ... We are coming to one collective now, instead of having one for every team.

SF: The ACC looks very different now than it did in your first go-round at UNC. Do you think UNC will ever leave the ACC?

MB: I don’t have any idea, but to say that anything is for sure — for a long time, John Swofford did a great job of stabilizing the ACC and now the grant of rights there is until (2036), so what does that mean for Florida State? What does that mean for Clemson?

If those two do leave the league, what does that mean for the rest of us?

… It’s all about revenue. Everybody loves the ACC and would like like to stay, but you gotta have money. You can’t just say, “I need 18 million more dollars.” Where’s it gonna come from?.... I think that it’s kind of sad, but money’s driving the realignment and football’s the money right now. So football is driving the realignment.

And that’s why there’s more pressure on guys like me. We need to win so we can make more money, so our school can pay all the bills that we’re having to pay.

The national award-winning “Sports Legends of the Carolinas” series includes 1-on-1 interviews with guests like Steph Curry, Roy Williams, Mike Krzyzewski, Julius Peppers, Jake Delhomme, Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Dawn Staley. Those are also available on the “Sports Legends of the Carolinas” podcast, where a fuller version of this interview with Mack Brown can also be found.

The “Sports Legends” coffee-table book is now available at SportsLegendsBook.com and at local bookstores.