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Cagewriter - UFC

Cagewriter

Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:00 pm EDT

Cut out the confusion by posting judges' scores between rounds

By Maggie Hendricks

In the past month, MMA has had two championship fights go to a decision, and fans and media have questioned the decision made by the judges in both fights. Ben Henderson and Lyoto Machida's wins  prompted calls for changes in the judging system, but with MMA regulated by the same state commissions that regulate boxing, it doesn't appear that the ten-point must system is going anywhere anytime soon.

But a small change in the way fights are run could make a huge difference in the way fights are fought. Currently, judges round-by-round scores are kept secret until the end of the fight. This does nothing but cause conjecture and confusion, as was shown in the light heavyweight title fight between Machida and Mauricio "Shogun" Rua. Why not post the judges scores between rounds?

Few other sports require their athletes to muddle through blindly, wondering if they are winning. When working on ninth-inning strategy in the World Series, Yankees manager Joe Girardi will know if his team is in the lead. 

This isn't new to combat sports, either. Wrestlers and judo players know the scores of their matches. Even Olympic boxing has a posted score.

Posting scores at the end of each round would not only be good for the fighters. Their corners would also benefit. Instead of focusing on the question, "Did my fighter win the round?" they could strategize, see what their fighter is doing right or wrong, and use the very short time in between rounds to relay strategy. No time would be wasted on telling a fighter if he or she won the round when the judges opinion would be clear.

Posting scores between rounds would not cure everything that ails MMA judging and refereeing. However, it's an easy change that could clear up any confusion that fighters and coaches have during a fight. 

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71 Comments

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  1. mike5o
    1. Posted by mike5o Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:17 pm EDT

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    If they did that, we wouldn't have all this fun complaining, would we?
  2. JJ
    2. Posted by JJ Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:20 pm EDT

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    Rob R...just curious what you thought about the fight Saturday. Before the decision, I thought Shogun won but I wasn't going crazy like some of the comments I read. I've only watched the fight once so from what I remember...the 1st round was close, I thought Machida won the 2nd round, the 3rd round was close, and I thought Rua won rounds 4 and 5. Without the point system, if you asked me who won the fight, I say Shogun. Machida was dragging his leg and he looked a lot worse than Shogun. I thought Shogun pressed the action. lole blamed Shogun's corner for telling him that he was winning. I thought Shogun DID press Machida the entire 5 rounds. I didn't think he took it easy because of what his corner was telling him. When a fighter gets to the 4th and 5th rounds, it's a lot tougher to "push" the action and try to finish the opponent than in the opening rounds. I've heard conspiracies that the fight was fixed etc but I'm sure that had Rua been declared the winner, Machida would have gotten an immediate rematch. My question is if the Judges looked at Rua not doing enough to win the title, then how could they justify Forrest and his fight with Rampage.
    I still think Shogun looked great and I'm hoping he wins the belt. I think he deserved to win.
  3. airwalk
    3. Posted by airwalk Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:28 pm EDT

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    they are only looking at it one sided... that's silly. if a guy knows he's winning the fight then he's just gona fight smart and not be aggressive. UFC is a business. fans will be more angry than they are now if fighters stop fighting aggressively because the yknow they are winning in the middle of a fight...
  4. hookers4jesus
    4. Posted by hookers4jesus Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:29 pm EDT

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    how about they just quit letting people who judge boxing events, be judges for mma events? make them be certified as a boxing judge or an mma judge. i damn sure dont want an NBA ref calling the games for my favorite NFL team or vice versa. and nobody wants a MLB umpire anyways.
  5. Darren W
    5. Posted by Darren W Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:29 pm EDT

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    They've tried to post the round scores live in europe for boxing. With disastrous results. This is not a new idea, or a good one...
    Instead, if you can just block out the round scoring speculation of mike goldberg, everything becomes suddenly more intelligible.
  6. Timothy V
    6. Posted by Timothy V Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:31 pm EDT

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    How does that do anything? Even so people may disagree with the judges scorecard. How does that solve the issue? Also, like many people say. Dont let the fight go to the judges scorecard. That way the judges scorecard does not mean anything. Though I will say maybe Rua would have not settled for what he was doing in the 5th round and maybe would have finished off The Dragon if he knew that the judges had him loosing. So I can see the advantages in regards to fighters but I doubt it would change anyones opinion on the fight.
  7. CSampson
    7. Posted by CSampson Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:31 pm EDT

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    Can we get that same female-robot voice that announces scores at the olympics to announce the round scores as well as showing them on the scoreboard?
    i actually really like this idea. it makes the strategy shift dynamically over the course of the fight and can help prevent fighters from being suprised when they lose a decision. I think giving the fighters and cornermen the chance to react to the way a fight is being scored can only lead to better fights and maybe even better judging.
    I can imagine the big promoters wanting to push this type of change as well, as it gives them another another source of revenue via premium advertising/sponsorship on the in-arena and on-screen scoreboards.
    Sadly it doesnt solve the problem of judges not being able to recognize which actions are truly effective and damaging, and cecil peoples will still consider constant backpedalling and running to constitue "octagon control", but at least its a start.
  8. hookers4jesus
    8. Posted by hookers4jesus Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:33 pm EDT

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    if they did post the scores, what happens when one guy is winning a round and the judges all post that the other guy won it? would that distract the corner people? would they start saying, WTF our guy won that round clearly. what about the crowd? when they see whats going on and then the judges say otherwise, what happens? posting the rounds doesnt fix the root issue. bad judges doing a bad job is the problem. we need MMA judges, not boxing judges pretending to know about mma. hence, cecil peoples saying legs kicks dont count as anything. it wasnt a boxing move so it didnt count.
  9. Rob R
    9. Posted by Rob R Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:37 pm EDT

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    Get Iole in here...He's going to strangle you, Hendricks. No open scoring!
    Hate to say this, JJ...but I was laid up sick on Saturday and didn't get a chance to watch 104. I'll probably check it out this weekend. Everyone I've talked to gave Rua 1, 4, and 5. I've heard nobody give it to Machida. While there's something to be said for taking the fight out of the judges' hands, there's also a place for a good "points" fighter in MMA.
    As far as what Iole said, I don't really get it. Rua apparently did enough to win Rounds 4 and 5 on at least 2 judges' cards. If the corner said he was winning, and he sleepwalked through 4 and 5 and lost them (see De La Hoya/Trinidad), then you could blame the corner. I don't blame Rua for not going in for the kill. Going in for the kill against a defensive fighter like Machida is asking to have your lights turned out. If you think you can beat Machida on points, go ahead, it's possible.
    I watched Forrest-Rampage a few times, and I think Forrest did enough to "take" the title. Either way, I think the presumption that the champ should win any close rounds is stupid. If a round is too close to call, make it 10-10. Don't put the challenger in a 1-0 hole with only 4 rounds left or in a 2-0 hole with 3 rounds left. That's unfair to the challenger. Call it even and move on.
  10. Rob R
    10. Posted by Rob R Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:39 pm EDT

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    Now...What we COULD do is get an old guy like Howard Lederman to scream at us between rounds about who he thinks is winning.
  11. Allen
    11. Posted by Allen Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:42 pm EDT

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    It's a step in the right direction.
    After watching the fight again it could have gone either way.
    It happens all the time and this time isn't any different.
    What's Rua's strategy going to be for the rematch?
    Machida seems to be much the same fighter Silva is. They do not advance as much as they wait and counter, and then by that time, they are all over their opponent. Their striking speed is just crazy.
    Will Rua be more aggressive? Or will he stick to what he did Saturday?
  12. Rob R
    12. Posted by Rob R Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:53 pm EDT

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    My concern is that the whole "you have to take it from the champion" mindset is going to be EXTREMELY unfair for anyone who fights Anderson Silva or Lyoto Machida...two guys who WANT you to be aggressive.
    If that's sort of an unspoked thing among judges (I know it's not in the stated judging guidelines), then it needs to be wiped out with written judging guidelines as part of the unified MMA rules. In a 5 round fight, it's unfair to require a challenger to either get a stoppage or emphatically win 3 of 5 rounds.
  13. ryan w
    13. Posted by ryan w Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:58 pm EDT

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    never going to happen. the dumbest idea ever. did you ever actually think about this before spitting out such ignorant words? this is by far the most immature blog ive ever seen on yahoo.
    maggie you are never going to amount to anything.
  14. Lincoln
    14. Posted by Lincoln Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:06 pm EDT

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    As others have pointed to in this blog already, this is a terrible idea. I didn't work for boxing, it won't work for MMA. Part of what makes a fight so intriguing is the mystery that neither fighter knows how a close fight is being judged. If you negate that part, you'll end up with one fighter playing it safe to keep his lead, while the other can either be discouraged, depending on how far behind he really is, or just go out and make stupid careless mistakes, that normally would have been uncharacteristic of him. Bottom line, this is a terrible idea; controversial scoring has affected all sports that rely on a 3rd party to asses their take on the winner, at one point or another.
  15. Jimmy
    15. Posted by Jimmy Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:22 pm EDT

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    I think the solution here is to encourage the use of 10-8, 10-7, or even 10-10 scoring. The fourth and fifth rounds of this fight should not have been scored the same way as the first. If we saw a wider discrepancy in the scoring, there would be less margin for error. I'm sick of seeing a 30-27 or a 50-45 decision when one fighter clearly dominated the other.
  16. mathiasmorciglio
    16. Posted by mathiasmorciglio Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:25 pm EDT

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    it's a good idea in theory, but not necessarily in practice, for many of the reasons listed above, not the least of which is if a guy can see that he's up two rounds to nil will he press the action or just try not to lose a 10/8 in the third. A bette idea would be to have judges trained specifically in MMA scoring, as opposed to having boxing judges scoring MMA bouts, not that some couldn't score both, as long as they had some sort of specialized training or certification.
  17. heckaguy
    17. Posted by heckaguy Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:48 pm EDT

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    RobR, agreed that Iole was off-base saying Rua needed to be more aggressive going into rounds 4 and 5. He did plenty in those rounds, and won them both (according to 2 judges). Rua being more aggressive in the last 2 rounds - short of a massacre - would not have changed the outcome of the fight. Besides, no one would have guessed Rua needed a knockout to win going into the last round, so there was no need to take a significant risk by attempting to get a stoppage. If anyone is deserving of criticism for not being aggressive enough in rounds 4 and 5, it's Machida. He had to know that this fight was razor close, and that he was in serious jeopardy of losing his belt. Yet, he came out and layed an egg in both rounds, putting in an entirely lackluster performance when it mattered most. Machida basically conceded his belt to Rua in the championship rounds -- hardly what I would expect from someone who preaches all that samurai warrior crap.
  18. Robert C
    18. Posted by Robert C Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:50 pm EDT

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    I can see both sides of this one. Personally, I would like to see the results round by round. If I was a fighter, I would certainly want to see it. Maybe I think I am winning, but the judges and I see it differently....I would like to know. Also, if my opponent took the first two rounds and I have no way to win a decision, then I will try harder to stop the guy...who will probably be trying to keep away from me and secure his decision.
    I think in 3 round fights it would work great.
    5 round fights...well, you will probably get situations where one guy wins the first 3 rounds....the other guy knows he can't win a decision..but also knows he can't stop the guy. So the last two rounds are both guys touching gloves and just wanting to get it over with.
    But I think the positives outweigh the negatives. Let a guy know for sure that he needs a stoppage to win. Will it change the fighter's attitudes in the last round....I don't know. I have watched plenty of fights where it was very evident that a guy needed a stoppage to win and he didn't do anything about it.
  19. jtakeo11
    19. Posted by jtakeo11 Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:05 pm EDT

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    you guys are saying how dumb this would be and posting scores wouldn't do anything. 2 things, one if you're going to say what's posted is dumb, then say why. don't just say it's stupid (@ ryan w). 2. it would be GREAT if they posted the scores. say Shogun knew that he was down going into the 4th and the 5th. you don't think he would have gone all out for a KO? come on? he was going for the win, sure, but he was trying to win the round. Iole posted that he should have gone for the kill in round 4 and 5, well he would have if he knew he was down rounds. yeah, it doesn't get rid of all the controversy and yes the fighter that is ahead might slow down, but what do you think happens in other sports? what happens in football when a team is winning, the start running the ball and eating the clock. fighters would therefore have to change up gameplans, it would make fights better and more interesting. think before you write people.
    it's funny, i sent this to the yahoo writers two days ago and then this post comes up....interesting.
  20. jtakeo11
    20. Posted by jtakeo11 Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:07 pm EDT

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    haha, can you imagine a basketball game where people didn't know the score until the very end? AND ON TOP OF THAT, the scoring is MMA is subjective which makes the surprise even more shocking. they should show the scores, ESPECIALLY because the scoring is subjective.
  21. Brian
    21. Posted by Brian Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:08 pm EDT

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    Posting scores wont solve it. Different judges will see fights they way they want. Some judges like the more aggresive moving forward fighter. Others reward for counter striking and defense. What really needs to happen is the corner people need to stop being "yes-men" telling a fighters how great they are. If there is doubt in their minds about how the fight is going, be a little more honest and tell your fighter he better pick it up. Rua's corner telling him he's way ahead was the wrong advise. Bad scoring is nothing new so rather than guessing that the judges see thye fight going your way, tell them it's close and to keep the pace and tempo up. Finally, as a fighter try to do everything in your power to stop the fight. Don't leave it to the judges.
  22. Gary B
    22. Posted by Gary B Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:10 pm EDT

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    I'd like to see a tweaking of the ten point must system. It seems to me that 10-9 covers way too much ground. I would like to see a 10-9 mean that there was some doubt as to who won the round, but a decision was made. A 10-8 would mean that one fighter clearly won the round. And a 10-7 would be like what a 10-8 is now. You could even make a true champions advantage rule, saying that a champion cannot lose a round 10-9. Meaning if the round was in any doubt, it is a 10-9 in favor of the champion. At least then the rule is on the books and everyone expects it. More burden would be placed on the challenger to finish the fight, rather than try and coast out a victory on points.
    I also think a big reason for the frustration is the fact that Rua was the first person to ever really cause any damage to Machida. The guy barely ever gets hit, and nobody knew what to do with his style. Just by being able to figure out his style and cause some actual damage to Machida, I think many people equated that with a victory. He did far better than anyone had up until this point. So from that mindset, he deserved a win, but if you don't give him points for negating Machida's style, it was still a very close fight.
  23. BearDown
    23. Posted by BearDown Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:14 pm EDT

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    How about Maggie becoming a UFC ring girl and walks around the cage displaying the scores? Go get 'em girl!!
  24. Arthur G
    24. Posted by Arthur G Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:16 pm EDT

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    from someone who has been in many judo tournaments, trust me, once someone knows they're winning, they go defense only and it is one guy only trying to score. that is why they had to introduce a non-combative penalty, and it is called very often in judo, wonder why. electronic scoring devices without competitors or coaches seeing the score could work if it is was implemented. why Japan still rules in judo, they are taught to always go for the ippon(KO).
  25. KJ-MMA Armchair
    25. Posted by KJ-MMA Armchair Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:40 pm EDT

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    I pretty much agree with Maggie. You can argue if a guy is two or three rounds up he'll coast the rest of the fight, but I think it would light a fire under the ass of the guy whose down and he'll go for broke.
    There are some reports of a judge during one of the prelims that went to decision missing the first minute and a half of the first round.
    Cecil Peoples has a long history of making the wrong decision in multiple fights.
    In any other job, some of these judges would have been fired and blacklisted for gross incompetance several times over. So I blame the Athletic Comissions for continually hiring them.

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